CWB Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 Thank you. There's a lot at stake here and scoffing and smugness is pretty insensitive and short sighted IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad_Max Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 You know, these are the kinds of posts that get threads locked. Not everyone faces the same situations that you two seem so smug about. It's nice that Gringal was able to get rid of an older car that probably had years of use left in it and lay out another $15K for a new one. Some folks here are not so fortunate. I was in my financial person's office this morning and I asked her what the reaction to all this is among her many U.S. and Canadian customers is shaping up as. She said a lot of them are pissed and looking seriously at leaving. Now you can scoff at that sentiment all you want but it is certainly beginning to look like our community is dwindling even before all these disincentives were piled on and this is not good for our future, particularly those like us and you, Gringal, who have bought homes here How would you feel about losing 25 percent or more on what you have spent on your home? Because sure as heck the Mexicans aren't going to pay these prices for property. The slowdown in "new blood" has already resulted in a market flooded with property. It is in our direct interests for people from NOB to keep coming here unless you're also happy to lose many thousands of dollars on your home purchase, if you can sell it at all. I expect that point of view would have a very limited following around town. There's someone else to be considered here and that are the many, many fine Mexican people who ease our golden years by helping us keep our homes clean and maintained, and all the other things they do at reasonable cost for us. When there was all these concerns about crime and people leaving over it, both our maid and gardeners really wanted to join in the public meetings because they told us quite frankly that the Mexican employers would pay them poorly and treat them badly. If these government bumblers succeed in driving the expats away and discouraging newcomers, these great Mexican folks will be hurt badly. There's a lot at stake here and scoffing and smugness is pretty insensitive and short sighted IMO. We'll trade cars too. We're going to lose thousands on a perfectly good car and have to lay out at least as much as Gringal spent because of this. But I sure have a lot of sympathy for those for whom this is really going to hurt and I am really surprised that a country that claims its policy is to encourage retirees seems to be doing so much at the moment to upset them and drive them out. Just to reiterate what JRM is saying, though, all the reports and the stuff I posted shows clearly, if you have EITHER an FM2 or an FM3, the way to avoid financials is simply to either complete the Temporada period, applying for your renewal WITHIN 30 days of expiration, or if you have the 4 years combined FM2/3, apply for Permanente, AGAIN within the 30 day period before expiration of the current visa. If you decide to apply before the 30 day period, or to go Permanente early, you will have to provide the financials. Although that is NOT the topic of this thread, it is good to all be on the same page at least as it applies to this area of the new laws. Surprisingly, my financial gal did not fully understand this. What was said in Vallarta two days ago was pretty clear. Is it the final policy? Who the hell knows but that in itself is damaging to the expat community. As several above have noted, there are other places nearby that seem to be a great deal more expat friendly these days. The presentation that was included in an earlier thread said something different than your 30 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad_Max Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 I don't see the aduana's ruling (if indeed it's final) that upsetting; it's pretty close to the rule that was in place for Immigrado, which was a permanent visa status. However, the confusion that resulted from these changes isn't rightfully blamed to a bunch of nervous expats. The confusion should have been avoided by INM, Aduana, etc. They certainly took their time rolling out these new policies and had plenty of time to get their ducks in a row. But they didn't. They let false information flow from both their local INM offices and INM centro, in Mexico City. The way they handled these changes is regrettable as it will give some potential expats pause to reconsider Mexico as their final destination... Aduana has not issued any new regulations. That is what people are hoping for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringal Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 "You know, these are the kinds of posts that get threads locked. Not everyone faces the same situations that you two seem so smug about." (Mainecoons) You missed my point, Mainecoons, and there was nothing I said that was offensive or would justify locking a thread. The point being: we didn't enjoy losing our shirts on the car matter, any more than anyone else would. I can think of many other things I need/want to spend the money on, and we are far from being in the top financial bracket around here like some others I can think of who are complaining about having to get rid of their non-Mexican cars. There was no point whatsoever paying a high fee to nationalize an eleven year old pickup truck. There is also no good reason why people expect Mexico to give them a pass on keeping their cars when no other country I can think of, including the U.S.A. does so. I am also amazed at the number of people who are ready to leave the country over issues like that. As I stated in my post, my sympathies lie with those who are suddenly faced with those very high financial requirements which may prevent them from staying where they hoped to retire, or who wanted to come here since the cost of living on the usual retirement income in the states has made it nearly impossible to survive there on that amount of money in a decent lifestyle. That, not automobiles, is the real tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valbogyo Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 Gringal: "As I stated in my post, my sympathies lie with those who are suddenly faced with those very high financial requirements which may prevent them from staying where they hoped to retire, or who wanted to come here since the cost of living on the usual retirement income in the states has made it nearly impossible to survive there on that amount of money in a decent lifestyle. That, not automobiles, is the real tragedy." I agree with you. I also feel badly for those who are not getting good advise from their lawyers. I spoke to a couple a few weeks ago who were told that they both had to meet financial requirements. It seems no one has told them of the option that one obtains the visa and then applys for the spouse to come in as a family member. Someone on Mexconnect just pasted a letter from a Mexican consulate (Houston) that explained this option. I do not know how to place a link to a particular post, but it is on this thread dated Feb 14th http://www.mexconnect.com/forums/General_C1/Living%2C_Working%2C_Retiring_F4/Recent_experiences_in_INM_and_Consulate_office_P183078-8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrm30655 Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 IF these rules come about and I have to do something, I'm going to nationalize my Jeep and go on. I'm not particularly happy about spending $2000 to do it, but it is more economical than anything else. I looked up what I thought I might get at KBB.com and I looked to see what it would cost to replace it here and the difference is more than $2000, plus I know what I have now and buying a used car is always dicey. In addition, since I can then sell it here, the value actually goes up some. I'm not going to do anything until the rules are published. When they get published, I'll read them and do what I have to do. I've been here for 5 years skating thru the loophole for free. If I had been in the US, it would have cost me at least $400 a year more in gas, tax, tags, emission stickers and insurance. Probably a lot more. I look at this just as payment for past use of the MX road system. Everyones case is different but looking at it from my point of view, this is not a crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainecoons Posted February 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 Max, people here have been getting new Temporadas and Permanentes on the basis I cited and that's what the links I put up confirmed. We actually put this question to Spencer as well, who is handling the new visa renewals, in the context of applying early for the Permanente and he told us to wait until the 30 days before so we wouldn't have to provide financials. That's two out of three. I'm going with it. Gringal, wasn't your post I was referring to. But, really, try and understand that not everyone has $15 grand to lay out in one sum on a car because these unreasonable rules put them in this situation in some cases with very little warning or time to raise the money to do so. I have no problem with the idea that permanent residents should end up with Mexican plated cars. My problem with this situation is that these changed rules should include some sort of amnesty so that people who spent money on cars under the old rules can get them nationalized. IMO, the NAFTA rules should be waived and we should be able to nationalize any car, regardless of year or origin. It isn't like they're doing this for free, it is pretty expensive and amounts to a fat tax penalty. I think if you're going to change the rules of the game like this, you should also provide a pathway to legalize cars currently owned by folks who brought them here under the previous rules. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satnrose Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 It's not the car nationalization that irks me and I am lost as to where this issue stands. What is bumming me out is the lack of due process. A country can enact laws, however there needs to be a process of fairness to all envolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringal Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 IF these rules come about and I have to do something, I'm going to nationalize my Jeep and go on. I'm not particularly happy about spending $2000 to do it, but it is more economical than anything else. I looked up what I thought I might get at KBB.com and I looked to see what it would cost to replace it here and the difference is more than $2000, plus I know what I have now and buying a used car is always dicey. In addition, since I can then sell it here, the value actually goes up some. I'm not going to do anything until the rules are published. When they get published, I'll read them and do what I have to do. I've been here for 5 years skating thru the loophole for free. If I had been in the US, it would have cost me at least $400 a year more in gas, tax, tags, emission stickers and insurance. Probably a lot more. I look at this just as payment for past use of the MX road system. Everyones case is different but looking at it from my point of view, this is not a crisis. Good point. We left CA in our pickup truck back in 2004 and since we had no intention of driving it back, we applied for a non-operation permit (meaning we would not be driving on CA roads). Good thing we did, since otherwise, the license fees, penalties and what-all would have been accumulating. We,too, "skated through the loophole" and saved a considerable amount, like the previous poster. We bought new because we wouldn't trust a used car unless we knew the owner very well. Speaking of having money "laying around": Back in the olden days, people "saved up" for things by not spending for other things. As the former vehicle depreciated, we put something aside each year for replacing it. I know, that's a fossilized concept, but spoken as the true fossil that I am. I have no idea what the powers that be were thinking when they came up with those tough financial requirements unless it was either retaliation for U.S. Immigration policies or, to put it bluntly, they don't want any of the less than well-to-do gringos coming in anymore. We'll probably never know. Sad, though, for those who are affected. Another poster mentioned the idea of applying as a family member, which I've heard would work...as opposed to having to have both husband and wife each meet the requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exHawaiian Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 When we moved to Ajijic, the one of the biggest incentives was financial, as we could afford to legally live there comfortably on a limited income. We spent every penny in Mexico, living and traveling there, enjoying and participating in the culture and the land for over 6 years. I have a friend who just retired, with plans to move to Lakeside. Her plans have had to radically change. She can't do it and is so disappointed. Now the new requirements may drive out many people who entered the country totally following all the legalities. They are finding that even though they have been completely legal for more than 6 years, they may be forced to leave. There must be a better way. Am I a whiner? Or a realist?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johanson Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 I'm going to get jumped on for saying this, but some of you are getting way too upset. Just sit back and wait. I know a lady who has lived here more than 25 years on a very limited budget. No big deal, Mago is helping her get here permanente. If her FM-3 or whatever its now called had not said 3 or 4 on it, she would have waited until it did and then go permanente. She didn't have to show any financials. Because my latest FM-3 said 1 year and I wanted a Permanente, all I had to do was show 12 months worth of statements from my Actinver Casa de Bolsa account as I applied last Dec 7th or so. I have to go to Guadalajara next week to get fingerprinted. Yes everything is going more slowly than I would like. But no big deal. How about my 2001 Texas plated car that stays here full time with a window sticker showing that the plates were last updated in 2004? I don't know. I could worry or sit back and relax and make a move when I need to. How many older cars have you seen being driven by Mexican nationals with US plates. I've seen lots, and I've told them that I might need, is to convert to Mexican plates. They all asked why? Why not just pay mordida should the problem ever arise (No I do not drive much farther with this car than to the closest Costco, and never to the US. Relax folks. There is nothing we can do about the new rules. And it seems like every other expert has a different opinion about how they should be interpreted. One day we will know. That's when one will learn whether to be angry/sad or not. Until then I am not going to worry. OK that's just my opinion. And I may be wrong. But it's better on my blood pressure not to worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomgates Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 Living NOB, getting a new car was part of life, not always painless either. If it ends up that you have to sell your Foreign car NOB, take the proceeds and buy a local car. Not a deal breaker considering all the other benefits of living here. Some of you posters are driving to Texas all the time, judging from your other posts about the driving tips to Laredo. Just drop off the car next time and fly back. Easy, not cheap, but easy. Move on, life is good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 You know, these are the kinds of posts that get threads locked. Not everyone faces the same situations that you seem so smug about. Mainecoons, your calling me smug is one of the better laughs I've had in a while so thanks for that. Back to discussing the new rules that Aduana hasn't published yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 *deleted double post* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringal Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 When we moved to Ajijic, the one of the biggest incentives was financial, as we could afford to legally live there comfortably on a limited income. We spent every penny in Mexico, living and traveling there, enjoying and participating in the culture and the land for over 6 years. I have a friend who just retired, with plans to move to Lakeside. Her plans have had to radically change. She can't do it and is so disappointed. Now the new requirements may drive out many people who entered the country totally following all the legalities. They are finding that even though they have been completely legal for more than 6 years, they may be forced to leave. There must be a better way. Am I a whiner? Or a realist?? Unless I misunderstand the current situation: If a person moved here 6 years ago, got an FM3 and then an FM2 when they could, they would be able to stay put without the financials. That's a question for a legal beagle, but that's what I've heard. Absolutely new applicants would be stuck with the new financial rules, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bournemouth Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 Unless I misunderstand the current situation: If a person moved here 6 years ago, got an FM3 and then an FM2 when they could, they would be able to stay put without the financials. That's a question for a legal beagle, but that's what I've heard. Absolutely new applicants would be stuck with the new financial rules, though. That would be after 4 years on the current FM - years on older FM's are not being counted - at least locally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 you're a realist . if they apply all these rumors, it's another blow to my already massively declined hope for humanity. and how much do you think the average mexican will gain from this? jack squat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johanson Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 That would be after 4 years on the current FM - years on older FM's are not being counted - at least locally. Exactly and it doesn't matter whether its an FM 2, or 3. When it shows I guess 4 years you can apply to go Permanente without financials Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringal Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Exactly and it doesn't matter whether its an FM 2, or 3. When it shows I guess 4 years you can apply to go Permanente without financials That's what I read on Mexconnect by Yucalandia. We shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrm30655 Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 When all the new immigration laws came into effect, I looked up and read the law. It took 2-3 months until the local people and the written laws got on the same page. So far, customs hasn't published any new laws. My suggestion is just to hang tight and see what happens. Immigration made special rules for the long term expats and I suspect that customs will do something similar. MX does not want the expats to leave. We are a great source of income and they worked the immigration laws to protect the ones who were here. I don't see any reason that they won't continue down that path with the new auto laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Studio del Sol Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Johanson: "How about my 2001 Texas plated car that stays here full time with a window sticker showing that the plates were last updated in 2004? I don't know. I could worry or sit back and relax and make a move when I need to. How many older cars have you seen being driven by Mexican nationals with US plates. I've seen lots, and I've told them that I might need, is to convert to Mexican plates. They all asked why? Why not just pay mordida should the problem ever arise (No I do not drive much farther with this car than to the closest Costco, and never to the US." Yep. That's how I see it. Push comes to shove, I just pay the mordida. It's cheaper than nationalizing my 13 year old car or trying to get it and me to the border in one piece (HA!) and sell it. That's enough effort for me to be tempted not to come back down. And if push really comes to shove, I'll probably put my place up for sale (at a loss, but hey, that's happening all over) and look for a tent or yurt or something to set up every winter in the Calif or AZ desert. Or maybe Florida? No, Dios mio. No bueno. I couldn't stand that. It's just that Mexico is not the only option if you are healthy enough to poke your nose into other places. I know many down here are fragile in health, and some in mind. What's up in the air worries them. Some of the fallout could be hard on those folks, and shame on Mexican government if it pulls out the rug from underneath them. I don't think, though, if the boys in suits in Mexico are reflecting a bit, that they want to get rid of the expats. It does not make economic sense for the country to do this. But then maybe economic sense and reflection should not be used too close together in a paragraph when speaking of things south of the border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 respectfully...you make it sound like relocating is a piece of cake. that sure hasn't been my experience. and with the cops 'round here, you'd be paying mordida every time you took a drive. unless mordida ensures that that same cop will never hassle you again. i really don't know...is that how it works ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Studio del Sol Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 When you get old, nothing is a piece of cake. Except a piece of cake. In two years I haven't been stopped once. But then I don't drive a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichbinsaege Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 While all of this speculation is interesting to read, I wish the moderators, or administrator of the board would start a whole new section for immigration and aduana. Then the posts regarding other things wouldn't scroll down 2 or 3 pages and we wouldn't have to read the same thing over and over every time someone freaks out. The new laws are hurting those of us who are legit business owners, too. Which means less taxes paid, which also isn't good, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valbogyo Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 MexConnect has a "Sticky" thread for INM topics, for this reason. Rolly is the moderator, I believe. I am finding MexConnect is a great source because they have several contributors that really know what they are talking about. Perhaps the mod here can do something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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