Why is the Devil a part of Chapala Christmas Display (and Human Skulls)

[mexjerry]

A specific to Joco, you said: Devils, Hell and Satan are pagan beliefs, nothing Jesus an Orthodox Jew would have believed, so most of what passes for Christianity is odd anyway.

I think Jesus dealt with and addressed devils, Satan and Hell, on more than one occasion, for YOU to ascribe this to a PAGAN belief, is in my opinion, a flaw, in your thinking. After all, Jesus, was AGAINST pagan worship.

[Joco]

A specific to Joco, you said: Devils, Hell and Satan are pagan beliefs, nothing Jesus an Orthodox Jew would have believed, so most of what passes for Christianity is odd anyway.

I think Jesus dealt with and addressed devils, Satan and Hell, on more than one occasion, for YOU to ascribe this to a PAGAN belief, is in my opinion, a flaw, in your thinking. After all, Jesus, was AGAINST pagan worship.

Everything in the New Testament was written by people who never saw or heard Jesus. All of the Gospels were written decades after the deaths of any original witnesses and that is why pagan beliefs are mixed in with some Jewish beliefs. Yes, Jesus as a Jew, would have found most of Christianity pagan with its idols and he would have been against it. As a Jew, he did not have believed in Heaven or Hell. I grew up Catholic BTW with a gung-ho Catholic father who attended Fordham.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/timeline_04.html

"The New Testament Gospels were written between A.D. 65 and 95, though scholars have no way of knowing exactly who the books' authors were. These four Gospels tell similar, but not identical tales of Jesus' life and teachings. Mark, Matthew, and Luke are so similar to one another that they are sometimes called the Synoptic Gospels. The Gospel of John differs the most from the others.

In an attempt to unify the church he( St. Irenaeus) declared Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John the only Gospels that Christians should read. For Irenaeus the number four was extremely important: there were four directions, four winds, and he reasoned that there should be four separate gospels as well. Irenaeus and others believed that those four chosen Gospels portrayed the true word of Jesus' life and teachings."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#The_Gospels

"All the works that eventually became incorporated into the New Testament seem to have been written no later than around 150 AD, and some scholars would date them all to no later than 70 AD or 80 AD.

Since the 2nd century, the four narrative accounts of the life and work of Jesus Christ have been referred to as "The Gospel of ..." or "The Gospel according to ..." followed by the name of the supposed author. Whatever these admittedly early ascriptions may imply about the sources behind or the perception of these gospels, they are anonymous "

[More Liana]

The link More Liana gave doesn't work for me.

Try it again, Cedros. Gremlins in the prior link!

http://mexicocooks.typepad.com/mexico_cooks/2015/12/the-traditional-nacimiento-manger-or-creche-in-mexico.html

[bdmowers]

I guess we see different things. I`ve ALWAYS seen devils in Chapala creches. They`re a part I always look for. I love that the devil can be a part of a nativity scene. He`s just about everywhere else in Mexico, why not there? That balance is just so cool to me, so real, so honest.

[cbviajero]

.

[bmh]

I will have to check if the manger Chiapas sent to the Vatican has a devil.. It has 200 characters so maybe it does but I doubt it ,,It is supposed to be on the TV in the news tomorrow for those who have Mexican channels..

[slainte39]

I'm surprised the Mexicans you spoke with had never seen a devil in a nativity scene. I've seen them everywhere. Perhaps I noticed them more easily because they are out of the ordinary for a gringo.

Chalk it up to selective hearing, especially when one gets out on a limb, or asks the question, "you don't see the devil(s) in the nativity scene, do you?"

[ezpz]

I think one of the local senoras told me about one Christmas tradition that has faded around here - that of the Pastorelas - which involved the kids learning by memory long verses to recite regarding the Christmas story - and they included The Devil.

I've also seen The Devil in the wild, wacky, and fun Ajijic New Year's Day Parade (don't miss it on Jan. 1!)

Just FYI, one of my neighbors thought that the mostly gringo Thrill the World (which is a synchronized worldwide event to commemorate Micheal Jackson) performance every year near Halloween, was Devil Worship. I had to do some "'splaining" about that! jaja!!

Many Mexicans dislike Halloween because it has such a negative, evil vibe to it, unlike Dia de los Muertos with its skulls and skeletal figures, which are just an honest representation of reality as well as a commemoration to one's ancestors. Dia de los Muertos is really a very loving tribute, unlike Halloween which strives to be ghoulishly ugly and...devilish?

The Mexican religious customs still strongly derive from the Pre-Hispanic side of life here, which lives on due to the strength of the families handing down age-old traditions which were never successfully destroyed by the Spaniards. That is what makes Mexican culture so deeply and richly fascinating.

[bmh]

Actually many of the religious rite at least in Chiapas which we think are prehispanc are from Spain ´16th and 17th century aswell of course of prehispanic rituals. ..yes it is fascinationg to see the integration of several cultures all in one.

For Christmas, New Year and the day of the 3 kings, there is a village that have men dressed as women and men who are dressed as farmers running after a bull..no one seems to be able to explain where that tradition comes from and why it is done for Christmas, New Year and the Day of the 3 Kings. The village is an indigenous village.

Anyone has seen tha t"running of the bull for Christmas" ?The bull is made of petate..

[Intercasa]

Not all Mexican Catholics are pagans. We have some family that doesnt celebrate Halloween nor use satanic idols, they are Opus Dei.

[bmh]

Well I am not sure that is an improvement..

[dichosalocura]

Spencer, I'm afraid you're reference to Opus Dei may in fact open up another can of worms on this thread......

[cbviajero]

They're into self-flagellation aren't they?Just another bunch religious nuts if you ask me.

Wasn't the most treacherous spy in US history, Robert Hanson, Opus Dei?

[Intercasa]

My University here was run by them and they seemed normal. Seems like some want to brand them like the Illuminati with cloak and dagger stuff, anybody heard of the Yunque here in Mexico? I havent seen that side, just them not doing halloween and stuff like that.

[cbviajero]

anybody heard of the Yunque here in Mexico?

I have,not much to like about them in my opinion.

[sambrit10]

My neighbors always spend a day putting up their Nacimiento (nativity) scene. As in many houses it is extensive with figures collected over decades. It always includes a figure of the devil.

Tonight (29th) in the Centro Cultural in Ajijic will be a locally produced traditional play called the Pastorela in which the devil tries to keep shepherds from visiting the newborn Jesus. Of course it will be in Spanish, but just watching is fun. Check it out! Resisting the temptations of Satan, who obviously would be very interested in Jesus's birth (and to my memory DOES appear in the New Testament to tempt Jesus), is a strong part of the Mexican Catholic culture for many.

I, too, find it extremely odd that any Mexican would be surprised to see a devil in the nativity scene.

[cbviajero]

My neighbors always spend a day putting up their Nacimiento (nativity) scene. As in many houses it is extensive with figures collected over decades. It always includes a figure of the devil.

Not always,my wife,my mother in-law and my wifes grandmother set up elaborate Nacimientos and none them have a diablito in them.

[bmh]

Same with my neighbor..

[sambrit10]

Not always,my wife,my mother in-law and my wifes grandmother set up elaborate Nacimientos and none them have a diablito in them.

That's why I said "in many houses", as I know others who don't use the diablito. But I would guess that most of them are aware that some do.

[Chickadee]

Well the devil has been explained, but not the "padre". The "padre" is the Italian-born St. Francis of Assisi, (San Francisco de Asis), the overall patron saint of the Chapala area and the founder of the Franciscan Friars. St. Francis is often portrayed with birds and/or a wolf, but sometimes with a book (the Gospels) and a human skull. The skull represents death,which is not to be feared because it is the gate through which human beings enter eternal life. This imagery is not uniquely Mexican although it does fit well with the Mexican culture.

St. Francis is credited with creating the first nativity scene in 1223. It was presented by live actors during Midnight Mass in the mountain town of Grecio, Italy.

And while I'm on the topic of Franciscans - the patron saint of San Antonio Tlayacapan, St. Anthony of Padua, was a Portuguese-born priest who lived during the same time as St. Francis and became a Franciscan Friar. He is often portrayed with a book (the Bible), a small child (the Christ child), lilies (representing purity) and occasionally with fish. Of course he always wears the Franciscan garment - the brown hooded cloak tied with a rope.

[Travis]

Thanks Chicadee! I learned something from your post.