Need Specifics to Pay Maid's Social Security (IMSS)

[Jess]

8 minutes ago, Ferret said:

I highly doubt that signing someone up with IMSS for 3 hours work a week is going to get them boodiddleysquat from IMSS. If IMSS did such a great job of taking care of their own people, DIF wouldn't exist nor would the Food Bank or ANY of the charitable donations that exist within Mexico in various States. IMSS has bare bones medical care and can't even provide basic medicines to those in need. WHEN IMSS proves that they can do the job, THEN some of us might be interested in throwing money at them. They'll wait a long time before they get one thin dime from me. In the meantime, I will continue to take care of the people that I may employ and screw the government because they have not proven themselves worthy or capable... law or no law.

Dostortas.... How about this one? Definitely sounds like he wants to comply

[Ferret]

WOW!! I've lived in this country for 27 years and I've lived in three different States and done a lot of charitable work including with DIF. I know a whole lot about the way the various systems work here. I think, perhaps, that you do not. And I love Mexico and its people but really don't have a lot of respect for any of their government institutions and watch time after time when the people are ripped off.  It is YOU, Jess, who are misinformed about the reality here.

[Jess]

3 minutes ago, Ferret said:

WOW!! I've lived in this country for 27 years and I've lived in three different States and done a lot of charitable work including with DIF. I know a whole lot about the way the various systems work here. I think, perhaps, that you do not. And I love Mexico and its people but really don't have a lot of respect for any of their government institutions and watch time after time when the people are ripped off.  It is YOU, Jess, who are misinformed about the reality here.

It's the law Ferret and you don't know much at all about the IMMS system if you're comparing it to DIF.  Totally different and each serves its purpose.  Again, it's not your place to project your northern perspectives on this country, it's people or it's systems.  You can help, you can volunteer, you can give aide.  But you have no right to stand in the way of laws enacted to help the population.   

[Dostortas]

7 minutes ago, Jess said:

Wow!  So much of your info is incorrect.  Why do you live in a country you have such disdain for?  Another entitled human with total disregard the culture in which he lives.  Such self imposed righteousness.

You’re the one sounding self righteous, you’re pointing a lot of fingers and making sweeping statements inferring others are misogynistic, ignorant and lack respect for the law when others are simply saying they’ll follow along with what people in their employ wish to do.  I think you’re missing the point.  

[Jess]

1 minute ago, Dostortas said:

You’re the one sounding self righteous, you’re pointing a lot of fingers and making sweeping statements inferring others are misogynistic, ignorant and lack respect for the law when others are simply saying they’ll follow along with what people in their employ wish to do.  I think you’re missing the point.  

Not following the law is lack of respect for the law. How is this not clear? Why do you feel you have that right? And others are saying they won't do it for many of their own reasons.  Not doing it is not following the law.  If that sounds righteous, so be it.  To me, it's just common sense. 

[Ferret]

Give up Dostortas. This person thinks the LAW is above the will of the people's individual rights. IMSS couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper bag and they've been proving that since I arrived in Mexico. 

[Jess]

7 minutes ago, Ferret said:

Give up Dostortas. This person thinks the LAW is above the will of the people's individual rights. IMSS couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag and they've been proving that since I arrived in Mexico. 

Silly.  This law is guaranteeing the rights of the people.  It's clear crystal clear your argument has nothing to do with this.  Because of course, why would people want pensions when they retire, why would they want paid sickness and maternity, why would they want free childcare?  Silly people, of course they wouldn't.  And of course youre the gringo that knows more that the 75 million people in this country that have been receiving benefits for over 80 years.  Boy... Mexico is lucky to have so many immigrant intellects coming out of Chapala that know what's best for everyone.  Just a guess, but i suspect you're also a white male.  

[Ferret]

I'm not. Have fun with your pathetic crusade. Perhaps you should start with the large corporations here who take far greater advantage of their Mexican employees. You'll need a much bigger megaphone though and fluent Spanish. Buh-bye.

[Jess]

10 minutes ago, Ferret said:

I'm not. Have fun with your pathetic crusade. Perhaps you should start with the large corporations here who take far greater advantage of their Mexican employees. You'll need a much bigger megaphone though and fluent Spanish. Buh-bye.and you.

True colors always come out.  Sure is pathetic trying to help women receive benefits that can change their lives.  Perhaps you should check in on your conspiracy theory centric personality.  I'm sure it's helpful for those around you. 

[Sea]

1 hour ago, Jess said:

True colors always come out.  Sure is pathetic trying to help women receive benefits that can change their lives.  Perhaps you should check in on your conspiracy theory centric personality.  I'm sure it's helpful for those around you. 

Why are you attacking us? You posted valuable info about the change in the law that I at least didn't know. Thank you. I have a lot to process and check out. Can't speak for others.

Are you going to attack everyone who posts here? What's your agenda? You've made patronizing and judgy conclusions about other people's motives and possible actions that I know for a fact are not true. People are just trying to do their best in their own way. I would like to keep this thread open so we process and add to it. Your last post to Ferret is offensive. Also I don't see any constructive points that you're making now, beyond venting whatever your problems are with people here.

[Jess]

10 hours ago, Sea said:

Why are you attacking us? You posted valuable info about the change in the law that I at least didn't know. Thank you. I have a lot to process and check out. Can't speak for others.

Are you going to attack everyone who posts here? What's your agenda? You've made patronizing and judgy conclusions about other people's motives and possible actions that I know for a fact are not true. People are just trying to do their best in their own way. I would like to keep this thread open so we process and add to it. Your last post to Ferret is offensive. Also I don't see any constructive points that you're making now, beyond venting whatever your problems are with people here

This has definitely not been one sided.  I'm thrilled you've taken the time to understand the law more and what it means to these workers, most of whom are women.  This thread is filled with people blatantly saying they won't participate because of their own misplaced ideas, so don't gaslight me.  Filled.... So a lecture on the innocence of what's been written is laughable, and no, I won't accept this is somehow an aggressive agenda.  I believe so strongly in what this law does.  I've seen women be able to leave abusive relationships because of the benefits.  I've seen single moms buy homes with these benefits.... I've literally seen lives changed.  I will fully admit that intolerance and discrimination on this subject is infuriating, especially at the hands of entitled immigrants.  We live in the country, and I have zero patience for those who don't respect this culture and hinder a system of this culture and I find that offensive. 

[Ferret]

No you haven't seen womens' lives changed. Are you aware that DIF has a legal department to help women in abusive relationships? It's even hard for THEM to help because the laws in this country do not address the abusive husbands, fathers, brothers and lovers. It does not hold them accountable for abandoning their families and their non-support of those families. Those are the laws that should be addressed FIRST. And we can discuss this all until we are blue in the face and it will not change very much in this misogynistic country to lift our sisters up. THEY are the ones in the driver's seat not us and they are tough ladies.

[Jess]

7 hours ago, Ferret said:

No you haven't seen womens' lives changed. Are you aware that DIF has a legal department to help women in abusive relationships? It's even hard for THEM to help because the laws in this country do not address the abusive husbands, fathers, brothers and lovers. It does not hold them accountable for abandoning their families and their non-support of those families. Those are the laws that should be addressed FIRST. And we can discuss this all until we are blue in the face and it will not change very much in this misogynistic country to lift our sisters up. THEY are the ones in the driver's seat not us and they are tough ladies.

Wait what - I haven't?  How very interesting that you are an expert on my experience and involvement in women's issues in Mexico.  Of course I'm aware of what DIF does, I sit on the board.  I also work with menstrual education and sexual health to empower young women to stay in school and break the stigma that exists, I work with a women's micro-lending project, a scholarship program that helps to keep girls in school, we mentor match for adolescent girls, .....You see, the difference between you and I Ferret, is that I don't let my US experience and conditioning become the basis for judgement of this country's systems. I don't join one group, jump on a soap box and claim nothing else matters.   Instead, I do everything I can, to understand the functioning of systems here and engage in ways to support and promote what exists.  I don't create conspiracy blanket statements and hard-line single focused views that keep me from doing more.  DIF is a fabulous organization - that can be true AND other programs can work at the same time.  This ONLY and OR thinking are suffocating and hindering to moving things forward and does NOTHING to "lift out sisters up".  Quite to the contrary, you are holding them back.

I've have been working with the IMSS project for domestic workers since the pilot began in 2019.  We've helped to enroll over 51,000 women during the voluntary period.  We've helped to shape the digital platform, we've helped to shape the legislation giving some very basic rights, some so very basic that you'd be astounded that a group that hasn't had them.  I've seen women use the benefits for independence and autonomy, giving them choices to not be stuck in some bad situations because they had no social support or other options.  I've seen women begin to understand their worth and that they too deserve dignity in their work and respect in their profession, allowing them to demand basic things like a schedule they can count on, a work day that isn't 15 hours, Aguinaldo and vacation pay.  So yes, I've seen lives changed.  I've seen so much you wouldn't believe. So much more than my gringo bubble would allow me to see if I didn't step outside of it. 

I encourage you to channel that blue face outside of your box and realize to really make change, you have to open your mind to the power of AND.  Many things can co-exist at once to bring benefit.  There is clearly nothing perfect happening, but there are many, many things that add value to the lives of these women, please stop closing out those other options.

[Ferret]

Thank you for your good work since 2019. Although I applaud your efforts, I can see that you have not reached the line of disillusionment yet and burned out. I wish you well. I have only managed to leave a scattered group of feminists behind me as I've moved around. As a very old saying goes..."Educate the mother and you educate the family". I am delighted that education and women in University have become so common place here. The issue of IMSS enrollment should fall on the employee and ALL working Mexican citizens should be made to file an income tax return. And that will not be an easy transition. I wish you well.

 

[Jess]

11 minutes ago, Ferret said:

Thank you for your good work since 2019. Although I applaud your efforts, I can see that you have not reached the line of disillusionment yet and burned out. I wish you well. I have only managed to leave a scattered group of feminists behind me as I've moved around. As a very old saying goes..."Educate the mother and you educate the family". I am delighted that education and women in University have become so common place here. The issue of IMSS enrollment should fall on the employee annd ALL working Mexican citizens should be made to file an income tax return. And that will not be an easy transition. I wish you well.

 

I was 100% with you until "The issue of IMSS enrollment should fall on the employee and ALL working Mexican citizens should be made to file an income tax return".   It doesn't fall on them and they're not required to file a tax return. That's one of those high ground opinions that stifles. This is Mexico and this isn't the system that exists here, nor is it justification of not participating. If you let it be....again, no lifting going on.  I wish you well too and sincerely hope you find the power of AND.  It squashes disillusionment which is good for the soul and the people.

[Ferret]

I think this is what you call a Mexican Standoff... the concept is good, the execution is bad and both sides are suspicious of the other's intentions. And I'm not referring to you and other posters, I am referring to IMSS for domestic workers and the government as those domestic workers see it. I am not the only one disillusioned.

[ibarra]

IMHO  Even though it supposedly is the law, many workers simply do not want IMSS.  We, as employers, can't force anyone to be subjected to a program that they do not want. Nor, should we as employers, be penalized if our employees opt of said programs.  Again, as I have stated in other threads, get a signature and probably a thumb print on a document from your employee/s stating it was THEIR decision to opt out of whatever program is in vogue.

[Jess]

18 minutes ago, ibarra said:

IMHO  Even though it supposedly is the law, many workers simply do not want IMSS.  We, as employers, can't force anyone to be subjected to a program that they do not want. Nor, should we as employers, be penalized if our employees opt of said programs.  Again, as I have stated in other threads, get a signature and probably a thumb print on a document from your employee/s stating it was THEIR decision to opt out of whatever program is in vogue.

This is just not correct.  Can you imagine being  in the US and saying to your employer "No, I don't want you to take taxes out of my paycheck."  Or, "No, I don't want you to take social security out".  You can't, because these aren't optional programs.  These government run programs that have social implications for the people - it's part of how society works and function. It's how 75+ million people in this country alone survive.   I will tell you this as fact Ibarra.  Change is hard.   Very few like it and the normal human response is doubt until proven otherwise through education - be it self or induced.  Of all of the people we've worked with, not a single one has said they didn't want it AFTER they understood what it meant.  Not a single person didn't want to have a pension when they retired.  Not a single person did not want to have paid maternity, paid sickness, paid disability.  Not a single person didn't want to have social benefits that helped to make life a little easier.  So you can bury your head in the sand because it's easier for you, or you can help be part of a solution that does make a difference.  But at the end of the day, as I've said again and again; this is not their choice.  It is your responsibility and obligation.  They are not the ones who will be fined and possibly charged with fraud, it is you, the employer.  Like it or not, this is the law.

[ibarra]

Now who is using NOB references for a MX situation!   Jess, comparing taking out taxes to signing up for a health care program is like comparing apples to oranges in my opinion.   

[Ferret]

You mean like all the other "laws" in this country? Just how long have you lived in Mexico?

[ibarra]

Speeding is against the law and so is double or triple parking.  Who is enforcing those laws in MX?  Most of the time we live with que sera, sera. We all have to choose our battles and, ultimately, this one is up to the employee.  

[Jess]

32 minutes ago, ibarra said:

Now who is using NOB references for a MX situation!   Jess, comparing taking out taxes to signing up for a health care program is like comparing apples to oranges in my opinion.   

Ahhhh, OK I see the problem.  You believe IMSS is just a healthcare program.  You're partly right, but only about 20%.  Healthcare is 1 of 5 social buckets it provides.  I've been writing about pensions, childcare, paid maternity, funeral expenses, paid sickness, worker's comp...... But someone you've missed that.  These are all IMSS benefits.... Every one of them.  So you're making uninformed assumptions.  NOB for sure. 

[Jess]

59 minutes ago, Ferret said:

You mean like all the other "laws" in this country? Just how long have you lived in Mexico?

OK, we're going backwards again.  So much negativity.  I'm surprised you say you love it here.  In any event, I"m not arguing a point that has absolutely nothing to do with our opportunity to help a group that has been oppressed and discriminated against.  Just not doing it. 

[Jess]

52 minutes ago, ibarra said:

Speeding is against the law and so is double or triple parking.  Who is enforcing those laws in MX?  Most of the time we live with que sera, sera. We all have to choose our battles and, ultimately, this one is up to the employee.  

Ahhh, now we're comparing speeding to pensions and childcare.  OK....now that's not apples and orange is it....

[Dostortas]

“Jess”, your racist undertones and insults are not helping your cause at all.  Not one tiny bit. As a matter of fact, you sound like troll.  Not feeding this troll anymore.   ✌️