Michoacan for dummies .... and I am one of them

[Rony]

A very dangerous move...

It is actually showing that the government admits that it can not handle the situation on its own. Over and over again, this government shows how it lacks a decent plan, continues to improvise and acts like a rat backed up in a corner.

And in meanwhile, the president (unlike former Mexican presidents) is playing "good buddies" with (of all people) Raoul Castro.

And this can have so many consequences.... what if a group of autodefensas would refuse to hand over prisoners to the army or federal police. Is it all in line with the Mexican constitution ?

What happened with the wonderful plan to disarm the autodefensas ? Not that I am in favour of it, but it all shows how chaotically Peña Nieto handles this.

I am also very much surprised of how, "all of a sudden and overnight" they discover the hiding places of leaders of the Templarios. Great that they finally do so, but makes one think, no ?? Just proves, as I said earlier, that they knew all along who, where and what. Dirty business.

And to conclude.... those who claim that this approach is so very different from the former government..... I don't see the difference (federales, army come in, make high profile arrest and send out the pictures all over the media,.... like El Tio), do you ?

They want to "seem" different and better... all "show time". Fortunately, the Mexican people are not buying it.

Rony

[Mad_Max]

A very dangerous move...

It is actually showing that the government admits that it can not handle the situation on its own. Over and over again, this government shows how it lacks a decent plan, continues to improvise and acts like a rat backed up in a corner.

And in meanwhile, the president (unlike former Mexican presidents) is playing "good buddies" with (of all people) Raoul Castro.

And this can have so many consequences.... what if a group of autodefensas would refuse to hand over prisoners to the army or federal police. Is it all in line with the Mexican constitution ?

What happened with the wonderful plan to disarm the autodefensas ? Not that I am in favour of it, but it all shows how chaotically Peña Nieto handles this.

I am also very much surprised of how, "all of a sudden and overnight" they discover the hiding places of leaders of the Templarios. Great that they finally do so, but makes one think, no ?? Just proves, as I said earlier, that they knew all along who, where and what. Dirty business.

And to conclude.... those who claim that this approach is so very different from the former government..... I don't see the difference (federales, army come in, make high profile arrest and send out the pictures all over the media,.... like El Tio), do you ?

They want to "seem" different and better... all "show time". Fortunately, the Mexican people are not buying it.

Rony

ummm.... i sorta disagree - depends on what happens with the corruptions issues. Idealistically, it sounds great to me. Realistically, maybe a thorny path.

I, for one, could see no stopping of the cartels' influence - but that has changed - and I really support the autodefensas - at least my concept of what they are doing.Not being in the trenches with them,one can only come up with assumptions - and some of those are going to be wrong.

Here is a comment from Southern Pulse this morning:

MEXICO – Jalisco Governor to investigate families moving from Michoacán

On 21 January 2014, Jalisco Governor, Aristóteles Sandoval Díaz, announced that his state’s security forces would have access to military and police databases in order to monitor and investigate families from Michoacán who have moved to Jalisco in the wake of recent violence. His remarks followed a meeting held between the governors of the six states bordering Michoacán that focused on mitigating the threat of spillover criminality.

[alex45920]

Hey Rony...Like the man said, "Don't hold your breath waiting for the revolution." The Cowboys ain't comin' to save you. Reality kinda got in their way.

[Rony]

Wether there will be a revolution or not, doesn't really matter. The final outcome matters, and that should be more justice, less violence, less corruption, better education and last but not least, enough food on the table for everybody.

It will not happen tomorrow.

I expect the unexpected to happen (like many times in life).

Cowboy Rony

[valbogyo]

Wether there will be a revolution or not, doesn't really matter. The final outcome matters, and that should be more justice, less violence, less corruption, better education and last but not least, enough food on the table for everybody.

It will not happen tomorrow.

I expect the unexpected to happen (like many times in life).

Cowboy Rony

You are wise, Rony. Open minded and sincerely interested in what is happening. I know you talk to a lot of Mexicans, as well.

I am enjoying, so much, listening to the young Mexicans I know discuss the situation in Michoacán. They talk about how the people in these towns have been paralyzed for a long time, between fear and apathy. There is more that is encouraging, including how the towns are now governing themselves. Remember that the mayor and local politicians and police were run out of town, in some locations. The first AD groups have come up with a methodology for taking back the governing of their towns, and are sharing that knowledge with other towns. They are putting in checks and balances to make sure that city funds are not stolen. It is interesting and I hope that we can read more reports about that in the near future.

These events have made me want to really buckle down and work on my Spanish. Get out my dictionary and try and read more of the editorials, first hand. Thanks again, for bringing up the topic.

[Rony]

You are wise, Rony. Open minded and sincerely interested in what is happening. I know you talk to a lot of Mexicans, as well.

I am enjoying, so much, listening to the young Mexicans I know discuss the situation in Michoacán. They talk about how the people in these towns have been paralyzed for a long time, between fear and apathy. There is more that is encouraging, including how the towns are now governing themselves. Remember that the mayor and local politicians and police were run out of town, in some locations. The first AD groups have come up with a methodology for taking back the governing of their towns, and are sharing that knowledge with other towns. They are putting in checks and balances to make sure that city funds are not stolen. It is interesting and I hope that we can read more reports about that in the near future.

These events have made me want to really buckle down and work on my Spanish. Get out my dictionary and try and read more of the editorials, first hand. Thanks again, for bringing up the topic.

Great, Val,..... go for it. It really makes a big difference. Foreign reports (about Mexico) are not the same. Now that the chocolate season is almost over, I am going to only read Mexican books and newspapers because it is a fun and interesting language...., and the learning never stops. More importantly, it makes it more exciting and intense, living here.

A crucial part of the Mexican sense of humour, is playing with words.

And you are still young and full of energy.

Rony

[CSOKI]

According to the El Informador , the regional leader, German Ivan Rivera Aguilar = Licenciado R-10 , of the Templarios was

was arrested today.

[alex45920]

Thanks Hansi. Actually, this guy was arrested sometime last year. The Informador story is follow up, stating that the court has ordered he be sent to a formal prison. However, it does point out the fact that the government has been actively pursuing these criminals and would seem to indicate that the criticism of the government for being inactive and indifferent in fighting organized crime in Michoacan is untrue and unfounded.

[alex45920]

As Rony said, everyone seems to know who and where these guys are/were and it took that long to get to them? Come on ! We are smarter than that. Give us some credit.

You're entitled to your own opinion...but not your own facts. Reread the news articles in this thread and you may find out that these people were arrested while hiding out in safe houses (casas de seguridad). They tend to move around and sleep in a different house every night in order to avoid apprehension. To say that everyone knew where they were is simply not true.

How long did it take the U.S. government, with all its resources, to finally arrest and prosecute John Gotti? How about Al Capone? How long did it take to find Whitey Bulger? Would you accuse the U.S. government of being indifferent toward their apprehension and prosecution due to the length of time it took to bring them to justice?

[alex45920]

And here's another question for you, Hookem. If, as Rony says, everyone knew where they were, why didn't the Autodefensas arrest them? The Autodefensas have arrested mayors, city councils and entire police departments. Why not the leaders of the Templarios? Perhaps the situation is a little more complex than you or Rony have been led to believe by reading or listening to the rhetoric of the Autodefensas.

[valbogyo]

And here's another question for you, Hookem. If, as Rony says, everyone knew where they were, why didn't the Autodefensas arrest them? The Autodefensas have arrested mayors, city councils and entire police departments. Why not the leaders of the Templarios? Perhaps the situation is a little more complex than you or Rony have been led to believe by reading or listening to the rhetoric of the Autodefensas.

Alex, did you watch the channel 4 (UK) video with the most recent La Tuta interview? It is discussed on the BB forum, topic: News finally spreads about Michoacán. When you read about the number of checkpoints that the journalists had to go through...you really get the idea of how well the boss is protected. It would take a real military effort to capture this guy.

Sorry I can not post a link.

[alex45920]

Thanks for the tip ValGal. That was very interesting. Here's a link to the original video and accompanying text.

http://www.channel4.com/news/mexico-drug-cartel-la-tuta-servando-gomez-knights-templar

The video indicates that Templarios leader Servando Gómez Martínez (La Tuta) is well hidden and well protected in his mountain hideout...if he's still there. It reminds me of Osama bin Laden hiding out in the Tora Bora region of Afghanistan. The U.S. government had a pretty good idea of where he was hiding and went in after him. However, even with all the resources of the United States Armed Forces at their disposal, bin Laden escaped. Does anyone suppose the Mexican Army would have done a better job of catching bin Laden?

[alex45920]

Here's an update:

"El Menchito," the number two man in the Nueva Generacion cartel, was arrested by federal authorities at a safe house in Zapopan last week. Two of the men arrested with him were quickly identified as members of self-defense groups operating in Michoacan. This is now part of a continuing investigation into the possibility that rival cartels have armed the Autodefensas. The government would like to know how these vigilante groups became so well armed so rapidly. Human Rights Watch would also like to know. HRW suspects the government of arming the Autodefensas. Their experience is that the governments of Colombia, Guatemala and El Salvador armed similar self-defense groups, which rapidly evolved into "death squads."

Autodefensa leader Estanislao Beltran claims he knows where Templario leader "La Tuta" is hiding..."in the mountains near Apatzingan." That really narrows it down, huh? Meanwhile, the Autodefensas were able to tell federal authorities where to find two town "jefes." In a joint operation of the government and Autodefensas, the two were arrested without incident.

And, in an interview for Spanish-language TV in the U.S., Mexican pop star Melissa Plancarte, daughter of Templario leader Enrique Plancarte, claimed the Autodefensas forced her to leave the home in Nueva Italia where she and her mother lived, threatening to abduct her if she did not leave. She claims ignorance of her father's criminal activities and states further that her parents are separated and that she hasn't seen him since she was 15 years old.

[cbviajero]

Though there was no confirmation of the identity of the victims, officials believe the murders in the town of Patzcuaro were the work of the Knights Templar cartel seeking to dissuade potential informants

It didnt happen in Patzcuaro,it happened in Paracuaro,there's a difference..

[More Liana]

It didnt happen in Patzcuaro,it happened in Paracuaro,there's a difference..

Parácuaro is singer Juan Gabriel's home town.

[cbviajero]

Ajijic Hiker,I know your mistake wasn't intentional,the names are very similar,it's just that the whole state is being judged by what's happening in the Tierra Caliente area and that's not right.

There's an interesting interview of (la tuta)in todays NY Times,titled,(Teaching just wasn't right for him,head of Mexican cartel says),what a cynical murderous lying bastard this guy is,one can only hope that he meets his fate sooner rather than later.Maybe someone less link challenged than I can provide a link to the article.

[Travis]

I was going to post the link but Ajijic_hiker already did. The NYT link also includes the British TV piece embedded in it. Worth a watch.

[alex45920]

Melissa Plancarte continues to be an issue in the Michoacan story...and she certainly has piqued my interest. Here's a link to the music video which is referenced in the NY Times blog. Parts of the video were recorded in the former Michoacan Palace of Justice, which is now a museum. The video has caused quite a stir in Mexico, with many bloggers claiming it indicates some sort of collusion between government agencies and the Templarios. However, it turns out the location was simply rented for the video shoot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaWe1oe0Tnw&feature=youtu.be

And here's another sample of Melissa's musical stylings, a very popular song titled "Maldito Perro" (Bad Dog). Once again, I suggest you watch the video on Youtube and read the comentarios, which offer a striking contrast to the comentarios for the "Yo Soy Asi" video which was posted earlier in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9zglXlv8W0

[valbogyo]

That girl needs a PR firm. She is talented, in my opinión. I think she has a lovely voice and I like the songs. She just needs to be honest about her background and the leg up she has enjoyed, in breaking into the business. Unfortunately, she is going a different direction. So sad. I really think that you can not blame kids for who their parents are. However, as an adult, you have choices.

[alex45920]

The brother sings too. Named after his father, Enrique Junior uses the stage name of Kike el Principe de la Banda. Here he is doing a live duet with Espinoza Paz. Interesting choice of material..."Esta Es pa Mi Viejo" (This Is for My Father).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMGiIuTlT28

[Mad_Max]

Dr Mireles has now been "unfriended" by the self defense movement - http://mexico.cnn.com/nacional/2014/02/06/las-autodefensas-de-michoacan-desconocen-al-amigo-mireles-como-vocero

one of the reasons listed is that he did not support the new relationship with the government

I am sorry to see him ousted - to me, his voice gave the group some sort of credibility and respect. Without him, well guess we will see - but I consider this - in my humble uneducated opinion about what is happening - as a huge negative for the movement.

[alex45920]

Max...I think this is a good move on the part of the Autodefensas. The government and the vigilantes have agreed to get along and cooperate in the struggle to wrest control of Michoacan from the Templarios. Mr. Mireles' dissenting statements in opposition to that cooperation wasn't helping anyone but the Templarios. AUS leaders Hipolito Mora and Estanislao Beltran have been carefully distancing themselves from Mr. Mireles for a couple of weeks. According to a recent statement by Mora, "Mr. Mireles does not speak for the entire movement." And according to Beltran, "He makes unrealistic statements." Mr. Mireles has become a popular, romantic face of the self-defense movement. However, there may be more to his story.

[Mad_Max]

i agree - Mr. Mireles has become a popular, romantic face of the self-defense movement. However, there may be more to his story.

but hey - I like popular, romantic faces:) And since the government can't be trusted, i see no long term benefits for the Autodefensas to be their new best friend. I think this is a soap opera with an unhappy ending on the horizon.

[alex45920]

Perhaps this is why the other AUS leaders have decided to put a little distance between themselves and the good doctor:

Mireles, paramilitary leader, was imprisoned

for drug trafficking

Excelsior had access to the file where it states that the surgeon was arrested in 1988 for growing and selling marijuana, yet he became a senatorial candidate for the PRD

Here are some excerpts from the Excelsior news story published on January 17 of this year:

MEXICO CITY, Jan. 17 -. José Manuel Mireles Valverde, who rose to public fame almost eleven months ago as leader of a group of civilians in Michoacan Tepalcatepec that was put together to defend against kidnappings, extortion and killings by drug traffickers The Knights Templar cartel, 26 years ago was part of that world to combat today Mireles says, according to federal court documents.

On November 8, 1988 Mireles Valverde was arrested at the gates of his home in the Michoacan town of Tepalcatepec by members of the defunct Federal Judicial Police (PJF) in possession of 86 kilos of marijuana, packaged in ten sacks.

On these facts, Mireles was sentenced to seven years and three months and a fine of 50 thousand dollars could have paid for six days of work for the community. Although his time in prison was three years and eight months.

Former state police chief says that the arrival of José Manuel Mireles Valverde on the national scene since February last year has two readings: He is redeemed, because he withdrew from the criminal activities in which he participated in the past and is sorry; or he is doing the dirty work of the criminal group Los Farías, who are claimed by local authorities for years to be part of the Jalisco New Generation cartel.

Here are links to the original Excelsior article.

Spanish:

http://www.excelsior.com.mx/nacional/2014/01/17/938829

Google translation:

http://translate.google.com.mx/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=es-419&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.excelsior.com.mx%2Fnacional%2F2014%2F01%2F17%2F938829

[valbogyo]

I agree with you MadMax. However, I think this is a good thing for Dr. Mireles. That mans body is really broken and he needs time to recover. Now he may have the peace and space to focus on rehab. I believe him when he says he has no interest, at this time, in politics. A crushing accident, like he has experienced, would cause a shift in priorities. If he recovers, we will hear from him again.

Theater. Hmmmm. Time will tell.